Why foundations are rushing into green finance

Foundations are not generally known for being players in green finance but that started to change a few years ago, and right now more and more players are diving into the space.

To find out what’s going on, I talked to Marilyn Waite, who leads the climate and sustainable finance work at the Hewlett Foundation. Right now that’s a portfolio worth 75 million US dollars over five years.

Foundations are special because their non-accountability allows them to be very nimble and responsive, and this gives them tremendous leverage to come in with an agenda for change that can, over time, exert influence on the dominant agenda and narrative.

So don’t miss this episode to find out where foundations are putting their money and why right now.

Marilyn Waite currently leads the climate and clean energy finance portfolio at the Hewlett Foundation. She has worked across four continents in renewable and nuclear energy, and venture capital and investment. Author of Sustainability at Work: careers that make a difference, Marilyn’s writing has been featured in many news outlets, including the Financial Times, GreenBiz, and Forbes. Marilyn previously led the energy practice at Village Capital, modeled and forecasted energy solutions to climate change as a Senior Research Fellow at Project Drawdown, and managed innovation projects at Orano (now formerly AREVA). She holds a Master’s Degree with distinction in Engineering for Sustainable Development from the University of Cambridge and a Bachelor’s of Science Degree in Civil and Environmental Engineering, magna cum laude, from Princeton University. Marilyn co-hosts China Cleantech 生态创新, a podcast that features cleantech innovations and innovators working from China. You can follow her on Twitter @WaiteMarilyn.


If you know, one foundation, they have their own way of viewing the problem and viewing the solution set. Each one has its own culture. 

Welcome to Episode 12 of new Climate Capitalism.

Today’s topic is Philanthropic Foundations and greening the finance sector.

Now foundations are not generally known for being players in green finance. But since 2018 they’ve become active in the green finance space, and growth has been very fast in the last couple of years.

I talked to Marilyn Waite, who leads the climate and sustainable finance work at the Hewlett Foundation. Right now that’s a portfolio worth 75 million US dollars over five years.

Foundations are special because their non-accountability allows them to be very nimble and responsive, and this gives them tremendous leverage to come in with an agenda for change that can, over time, exert influence on the dominant agenda and narrative.

So don’t miss this episode to find out where foundations are putting their money and why right now.

Denise: So today we’re talking with Marilyn Waite about foundations and change, and, uh, she leads the climate and sustainable finance work at the Hewlett foundation.

Uh, so welcome Marilyn. 

Marilyn: Hello, Denise. Thanks for having me. 

Denise: Uh, could you tell us a little bit about your background and your journey? 

Marilyn: Sure. So I started my career in Madagascar after studying civil and environmental engineering, and I was working for the United nations World Food Program, supporting a lot of water and sanitation projects on the ground.

And they’re very drought prone South, and it was there that I faced firsthand the energy challenges. So for a long time, I mean, months at a time, um, we went without reliable electricity. The local utility um, was having a lot of financial troubles and the hydroelectric services they had, um, had kind of dried up in any case.

I became aware, um, in a very personal way of the need for reliable low carbon energy for the local economy. So I saw cyber cafes shut down at that time and refrigeration companies. So when I left Madagascar, I went to study engineering for sustainable development in the UK. And then I joined the low carbon energy technology cycle, if you will.

So I was with a big nuclear energy technology firm in France, and it was there that, um, really, I started to work a number of capacities and we were rebranding as not just nuclear, um, but also renewable energy and low carbon in general. And so I was in corporate R and D and it was there that we were, you know, doing various technical economic studies and supporting the various mergers and acquisitions that were happening, whether it was in offshore wind or concentrated solar power, um, even biomass and some of the innovations within that.

And it was there that I realized a lot of our troubles were less on the technology side or innovation side, or even invention side and really more in finance and investing and getting the best interest rates and, um, also in just costing things out, really in pricing things. So I kind of made the shift from a technology R and D project management engineering to finance and investment from there. 

Um, and so I left, uh, France and went to China, did a number of things there, including some cross border M and a support work or mergers and acquisition work. And, um, at that time, pollution was still pretty high in China in terms of the air pollution in the big cities like Shanghai and Beijing.

And I thought, you know, I can’t spend next decade here. Um, and so I went to the United States and, uh, joined a firm called Village Capital where I led there. Clean tech energy practice. And it was there that I really focused on the transportation side of things. So, um, the goal was to invest in early stage companies that were innovating in this space.

And I set up a whole thesis around  investing in companies that were improving energy efficiency and goods movement, um, so freight and other transportation. Um, and that was a lot of fun. Um, it was also very eye opening to really, um, understand the challenges at the earliest stages of, um, you know, bringing a new idea to market, um, or even a new, um, innovation to markets.

And I joined the Hewlett foundation, um, in early 2018 to kind of extend that, that whole background into, um, the three economies where I had worked. So the United States, China and the European union, and also, um, the four climates, um, in particular and across all the sectors that, um, make-up greenhouse gas emissions, um, and to get the entire financial sector moving in the direction of a low carbon economy.

And so really, um, my current role at Hewlett is all about mobilizing capital to solve climate change going from the 500 billion us dollars or so that we’re currently investing annually and globally to the least 1.6 trillion, we need annually and globally. And so how do we address that gap? And so we’re using both innovative finance and various kind of fund structures and also systemic decarbonization of capital tactics and strategies to achieve that.

Denise: So, um, I wanted to ask you a bit about, um, your work in foundations. Do you think that foundations can, you know, be agents of change and do they do this as kind of silent background players or, um, you know, are they more explicit in, in, in the way they make change? 

Marilyn: That’s a great question. So what I’ve learned is that if you know, one foundation, you know, one foundation, um, there is not a lot of, um, Sameness across, they kind of operate independently.

They have their own way of viewing the problem and viewing the solution set. There is a fair amount of communication among foundations and some collaboration. However, they really are. Um, each one has its own culture. If you will. So, um, some are very much background players. They do their work anonymously.

So you will not know if something is being funded or supported by them. Others, they would like their name on everything. Um, and they, they also make their strategies public. Um, they write thought pieces and they speak at conferences and so on. Um, so they take on a more visible role. And then there’s a lot of, in-between a hybrid of both.

So. There isn’t, you know, we could talk about the tech industry or utilities or, um, media and entertainment. Um, this really the, the philanthropic space is, um, one that is unaccountable in a way that nothing else. Is in society. And so you really do have a hodgepodge of players in the way they operate. 

Denise: And so this, um, you know, non accountability actually makes them incredibly powerful, uh, because you know, they, they don’t need to, uh, get approval from very many people, uh, to have an agenda to change their agenda, to just sort of make that happen.

This is, is that right? Does that correspond to your experience? 

Marilyn: I think so. I do think, um, there. There, especially now I’m in certain economies, including the U S um, there’s a sense that, um, they’re kind of off the radar of the general public and also a lot of, um, policymakers in terms of, you know, having a critical look at foundations and what they’re doing, but yes, the, the, the other side of that, um, lack of accountability is that they can be very nimble and respond in ways and, um, that others in the system cannot. Um, because of that, um, there’s a lot of flexibility and nimbleness around the way foundations can respond to the various types of changes they’re seeking to support.

Denise: Uh huh. Um, so when did, um, if we talk about the Hewlett foundation, um, the, um, when did climate finance, sustainable finance become, um, a priority.

Marilyn: So for the three years prior to January, 2018, when I joined, um, there was a fellow at the Hewlett foundation and our fellows have a three year mandate.

Our program officers have an eight year mandate in terms of a term limit, um, to set a strategy and implement it, and then it’s time for someone else to come in and, and, and refresh that, um, but for the fellows that oftentimes they will come in when just to try out something new, there’s a new idea.

Uh, there’s something that we haven’t explored. And so let’s, let’s do a little bit of, um, experimentation and let’s see if there’s something here. And so there was some activity around climate and clean energy finance. Um, for the three years prior to 2018 from a fellow. And then when I joined in 2018, we had a stand alone portfolio, you know, and really built out a large presence in this space.

So there was a, you know, kind of a precedent for this. Um, and then we really started to say, okay, this is going to be a permanent part of how we tackle climate change, um, from 2018. So it’s, it’s still relatively new in the grand scheme of things in the grand scheme of efforts to solve climate change.

Um, there was a realization that. We can’t get this done without moving the money. And I think there was a lot of realizations over the years about how we could, uh, solve this and that this was not going to be like the Montreal protocol. This was not going to be as narrow and simplistic because this is something that touches everything and it’s how we’ve built our entire economy.

So it’s going to take a little bit more, it’s going to have to have all hands on deck to get this thing done. 

Denise: So, um, I wanted to ask, cause I know I’ve seen these figures in the past that, um, if you look at how foundations, um, how their portfolio is structured, generally, a really, really small percentage is actually invested in climate change.

Um, and so what are the numbers for, um, like how big is the portfolio that you run and what percentage of that is the, uh, of the total investments? 

Marilyn: So in general, the Hewlett foundation does at least a hundred million US dollars every year in climate change oriented funding, um, that. Sometimes it goes over that number a certain years, depending on how the budgeting works, but we do at least a hundred million US dollars, um, each year.

And this portfolio around climate finance is 75 million over five years. Um, and that’s, you know, a rough estimate, but that’s how we’ve, um, portioned it out of our budget. You know, the numbers are shifting a lot because there are more and more foundations that are coming in to, uh, the climate finance the space. Um, so, um, you know, the, the numbers vary and so it’s difficult to give a precise number on the entire field. Um, but I would say there’s at least three other foundations that are starting to pick up similar work at similar sizes. And there’s a number of smaller players that are picking up different parts of the agenda.

Um, so we’re, you know, we’re talking about, um, tens of millions, hundreds of millions annually, um, just in the philanthropic space. And that mind you is, um, most of the time leveraging much bigger pools of capital to achieve the outcomes that are needed. Um, and often oftentimes has an outsized impact on the financial markets where wherever they may be in the world.

Denise: Right. So, um, you’re, you’re working from a strategy that was, uh, rolled out when in 2018, 2019. 

Marilyn: Yes. So we officially released our strategy at the end of 2019 at the end of 2019. 

Denise: Okay. So could you, um, just, you know, give us a quick summary of that, you know, what are the main, uh, pillars of action and how, how what’s the sort of the thinking behind it?

Marilyn: So we decided to focus on three markets, um, China, the European union and the United States. Those are the three markets, um, better where we have the historical emissions. And also most of the world’s capital is there. So in terms of moving the money, moving the capital, shifting it away from the dirty, towards the clean, um, these three markets are critical.

And so that’s why we’re focusing there. We’re also focusing on three pools of capital, um, venture capital, for lack of a better word. So high risk taking capital and that’s to do things like. Seasonal storage and the very hard to abate sectors like chemicals and steel and cement. Um, and, and those solutions to climate that are yet to be really commercially viable, but that we still need.

So venture capital is one of the pools. The second pool is asset management in particular, the pension funds. The insurance companies on the investment side of the insurance companies and the mutual funds in particular, um, you know, the retirement saving space. And then finally, um, the banks, uh, through the lending and credits.

Um, and probably most importantly, you know, over 90% of capital available globally is in the form of bank debt. That. And so, um, those are the three pools of capital, um, and they, they function in different ways. And you definitely can have a more direct impact through the fixed income bond markets, um, through the infrastructure that’s financed through that. 

Right. But also in the asset management space, you also have, um, private capital and private markets. So they are investing in some venture capital funds. They are investing in some private equity funds. Um, and so you can also impact a lot of the private market. Architects and project finance. And through that, um, that pool of capital, the banks, of course, um, because they have this, um, mandate to create capital through the central banks globally.

They are, you know, the foundation of the entire thing and they are the most risk averse. Uh, but what is great right now is that they are taking on climate solutions. It is a much more mature market for things like energy efficiency, equipment and solar panels, um, and, uh, certain types of wind projects and, you know, ground source, heat pumps, and air source, heat pumps, all of those things, you know, EVs electric vehicles moving beyond the internal combustion engine.

Um, banks are critical for that through their lending and credit. And so, um, that, that’s also one of our focus areas, the types of pools of capital. We’re also looking at the full suite of capital allocators. So we have this kind of pyramid image of, um, you know, who is in charge of moving this money. So who was making the decisions about aligning it with the Paris agreement and with, uh, decarbonisation. And so it turns out that when you start looking at things, there’s a whole, a whole series of layers. I’m starting at the bottom with people and consumers. Uh, we have bank accounts are, you know, are they leveraging, are these bank accounts, um, designed in a way to leverage our, our deposits for the benefit of the planet or not?

Um, we have a retirement savings. How are the pensions and other retirement infrastructure? How does that. Uh, you know, helping or hurting the planet, um, and people. So the consumers are at the, that base. And then we have our small and medium sized enterprises, which are often overlooked. Although now, with, in the COVID era, they’re receiving a bit more policy attention that I think they really deserve.

Um, and so, but likewise, um, small and medium size enterprises have a role to play. Um, In their bank accounts and their retirement funds, but also on their balance sheets. Um, then we have, um, the large corporations that are not financial. So the, you know, all the various sectors that are involved, likewise, their banks, their retirement their balance sheets.

Then finally, um, the financial institutions themselves. So the banks and asset managers, and, um, of course they’re making decisions on behalf of their clients, um, and for their own investment activities, how to allocate capital. And then we have this kind of circle around the pyramid, which represents government through the regulatory authority and how, um, regulatory bodies are supposed to, um, make the market work for the economy.

That it’s going to be stable and support full employment and support, um, uh, financial stability and all of those things. And right now it is, we are not prepared. We are not, the market rules are not set up, um, so that we can actually, um, uh, solve climate change and have this resilient economy that achieves all of those objectives.

Denise: Could you just give an example of, uh, perhaps an asset management manager in France or a retail bank or something that would have been the recipient either directly or indirectly of, you know, some of the money from your portfolio that’s aimed at, you know, decarbonization. 

Marilyn: So, so we have a really key partner in Europe, the European climate foundation, and they, um, you know, taking a step back from climate finance in particular, um, they work, um, across a number of strategies to support climate action in Europe and leveraging Europe’s international presence as well. And so, um, they have a number of offices throughout Europe, you know, whether it’s Paris, Brussels, um, London, um, you name it. Um, and they are, um, You know, our eyes and ears, but also, um, key, um, collaborators, um, within, within the European context for driving climate action.

So there there’s a lot that flows through the European climate foundation, but I’ll give you some examples on the climate finance side of how this could play out. 

So there’s, you know, I, I mentioned these, these pools of capital and the allocators in the markets that all is all translated to two things.

One is innovative finance and one is systemic work. And so on the innovative finance side, for example, we have partnered with, um, European institutions, financial institutions, um, and a private asset manager to launch something called the climate finance partnership CFP. And that is, um, managed by BlackRock, you know, the world’s largest private asset management manager, which is, um, an American company, but with 7 trillion is quite global. Um, and we are partnering with not only them, but also, um, AFD in France and KFW in Germany. So two European, DFIs, developmental financial institutions and, um, a number of other foundations, including the Grantham Foundation.

And so in this partnership, um, we are essentially having, uh, various, um, waterfall stacks of capital, um, subordinate capital to, um, various tiers, if you will, so that we could actually have this private asset manager take on more risks by investing in climate solutions in emerging economies, um, with the carve out for places like Sub-Saharan Africa.

So that is an example of how our capital and for us, it’s a, it’s a $10 million deal. Overall, we’re looking to mobilize at least 500 million, if not a billion. Um, and so we’re kind of putting our capital at the very bottom of the stack. We’re taking on a lot more risk than others, um, in the spec, but we are, that is in partnership with European financial institution.

So that’s an example of that innovative finance side.

On the systemic side. And example in Europe would be, um, the partnership of carbon accounting financials. So we are funding. An industry led initiative that started in the Netherlands. PCAF. the partnership for carbon accounting financials started, um, with the Dutch banks and asset managers, including the pension funds, asset owners, um, to really harmonize an approach to measure and disclose and also act on and reduce the emissions of loans and investments.

So, this is not, you know, bank X has a branch somewhere. and they, you know, they consume energy in that branch. And this is improving that operational footprint. 

No, this is the actual carbon footprint of the core business, which is to finance things. Um, and so. When, um, we caught wind of PCAF, we funded the global expansion of that, including in Europe.

And now it’s, it’s across the globe, you know, we on every continent, um, and we need to see that get bigger and bigger and also have some of the components of that mandated by regulation.

Denise: Okay. So that’s super interesting because that’s, um, gives a picture of basically two way flows, right? Both of ideas and, and, um, um, and, and funds.

It’s not just, um, you know, US-based foundation, uh, which has, um, spending power, which with an agenda that kind of goes out and does that, you know, in various parts of the globe, 

Marilyn: Absolutely. That’s right. 

Denise: Um, I want to just switch tack slightly and, um, talk about the, the, the S of ESG, which has come into focus a lot this year, obviously, because of COVID.

Um, and I wanted to ask you, how is this human strategy on climate finance, specifically addressing these, you know, S. Issues the issues of race ,of diversity, um, of gender and inclusion and, and, you know, given that it’s so hard to integrate these things. And, um, especially if you’ve written a strategy, you know, for 2019 and the world has already changed so much, uh, in the intervening 12 months, how are those things being addressed?

Marilyn: So climate change makes everything worse, right? It’s everything. In our economy and solving that requires all hands on deck. Um, most people in the world are of color and half of the world is, you know, are women. Um, so how do we expect to solve this if we exclude them? Um, we can’t. So even prior to the, um, racial justice anti-racism movement in the U S and globally this past year or past few months, we had already had a diversity equity and inclusion lens to our work, um, that goes throughout Hewlett Foundation across the various departments and strategies, including climate finance. 

Um, we also, within the finance community, we know the investment case for diversity. Um, better return on equity, return on investment. There’s a clear investment business case here. Um, and we have the evidence that women, people of color, younger generations, millennials are driving sustainable finance in particular, that which is aligned with, um, climate change action and supporting renewable energy. And, um, this transition that has to happen and has to happen quickly. So we have all the evidence we need for this to be a core pillar of the work and a core lens of the work.

Um, and so what, what can happen if you combine, um, this diverse sets of people with a climate for investing? Well, we get acceleration, we get innovation in short, we can get the job done. And, um, it’s been our lack of diversity and equity and inclusion that has. put the brakes on acceleration and, and, uh, us being able to solve this, um, systemically and quickly.

So pretty much we’re taking away those barriers and we’re saying no, all hands are on deck and our strategy. Um, and that includes women, people of color and millennials in a big way. 

Denise: Okay. So can you give one or two concrete examples of things, you know that have been funded that have specifically address that, or, you know, that have already perhaps shown an impact.

Marilyn: Sure. So one of the, um, most salient ways that we’ve integrated this lens is in our retail banking work. So back in 2018, we launched an RFP request for proposal on retail banking in particular was for. Our economies, all the economies, um, and you know, retail banking is everyone. It’s, it’s all hands on deck.

It’s, it’s the consumer, um, and small business, um, levels. And, and so, um, in that, you know, we found that, okay, wait a minute. So we have 12 trillion of deposits in the US we have 14 trillion in Europe and deposits. We have. Just under 30 trillion in, in, in China and deposits. 

Wow, there’s leverage here. And we have these trends of, um, everyone from, you know, these FinTech, new companies, like Aspiration Bank in the U S to Goldman Sachs, getting into digital banking and, um, challenger banks.

We there’s something here we need to capture for the good of the planet. Um, and so a number of things. Uh, things came from that RFP process. Um, one is we’ve supported, um, Inclusiv and it’s spelled without the E on the end. And that is a network of community development credit unions in the United States.

And we help support an establishment of a clean energy and resiliency center there. And so what that means is that now they have a dedicated portfolio person on staff to help credit unions, which are these cooperative banks, essentially not-for-profit bank. Um, do the lending. So the end, these, these credit unions are over 5,000 in the United States.

They are in rural communities that where you will find no Wall Street bank, they are in, um, urban communities where some of what you will also find a dearth of capital, um, in, uh, low and moderate income areas. Um, They are trusted by the population in a very unique way beyond banks. So they have a unique role in the ecosystem.

And so, um, helping them provide the loans for an EV, provide the more attractive interest rate for an  EV vs an ice vehicle. Providing solar loans and ground source, heat pumps, and all of those things. And also, um, you know, playing a role in getting the message out of, of how this can benefit communities and this, you know, through their marketing and addition to their lending.

Um, so that’s an example, um, at inclusive, um, we’ve also supported a Bank for Good campaign, uh, which has just recently launched also on the US side. Um, and that their messaging is. Um, very much geared towards everyone, um, people of color at our front and center there. Um, and so it’s kind of, kind of like let’s use our money to support our communities.

We are disproportionately impacted by climate change, um, by this pollution, um, let us bank for good, bank for sustainability, bank for climate action. Um, and so it’s a very strong campaign. I’m really happy about it. And, um, It’s still going on, so we don’t have all the results yet. 

I think what has been missing in the climate movement on the campaigning side and on the finance side, um, to kind of complement some of the other activities out there, um, that are, um, not necessarily, um, they don’t have an inclusive lens as their core, as their pillar, and in that campaign does, um, And so those are just some examples that I can go on and on.

Denise: I mean, really interesting. I, it makes me think about, um, you know, the, the sort of the youth climate activist movement and Sunrise movement, you know, which obviously played a big role during the past campaign. Um, uh, Are you seeing more and more of these activists campaigning movements, the pick up on the finance agenda, um, in a way that, you know, millennials, um, uh, are receiving the message.

Marilyn: I don’t see it globally in terms of the climate movements. Um, it’s definitely starting on the US side. Um, I don’t see it in. There is some history of it in certain parts of Europe, like the UK, I think there was a Move your Money campaign that was divorced from climate. I think it was more around just being, you know, economically, just, and, um, after the 2008/09 financial crisis.

Um, but I do think, um, in terms of mass movements, There hasn’t been a mass movement, um, for this, this climate finance pillar. I think there’s potential for that though. I, and I definitely see it more and more in the U S side of things and, you know, campaigning in general, as we see it in the mainstream has this, you know, media attention, people in the streets approach, which has of course.

Been reduced with COVID. Um, but we’ve seen people will go out in the streets when it’s critical. So people went out in the streets, post George Floyd’s murder, and that was not just in the U S that was global. So I do think there’s an opportunity for that and to have finance be a core part of that, because literally it’s, this is the engine that’s driving, the whole thing.

It’s the money. It’s the capital. 

Denise: Is the pace of change, you know, that’s coming out of foundations, um, fit for purpose, you know, for the context that we’re in. And do you think the Biden presidency changes anything for your work?

Marilyn: So fit for purpose? I think going back to what I said earlier on, you know, if you know, one foundation, you know, one foundation there’s such a diversity. Uh, sizes and types of foundations that there are foundations who do fund. You know, more radical change. There are foundations that play the long game on that, which I think is very important.

If there was one thing I would say it’s missing, it’s the foundations that are playing the long game, like the slow and steady. We’re not going to see the outcomes or wins right now, but we’re going to change the narrative and we need that narrative shift.  Um, I do think, you know, the narrative and France really is a more balanced one and that, um, you can have a market based economy, um, that also takes care of people.

Right that you do have, um, that both can coexist. Um, and that’s not as much a big the case on the U S side of things. I think it’s also the case in China. You, you take care of people. There is a collective responsibility and that, you know, China’s economy is almost back to normal in terms of, you know, post COVID, um, There people are having meetings and are traveling domestically in China and doing activities that are not happening in other parts of the world.

So I think there’s something to be said about that collective, um, responsibility narrative, um, that exists there that doesn’t exist in places like the States and at a large scale. 

Denise: Well, thank you very much. It’s this has been fascinating. if listeners want to learn more about your work and there’s, there’s lots more out there to learn about beyond the, um, foundation work, uh, such as I believe you’ve, you’ve written a book about sustainability. You’ve done a lot of work on careers, so, um, what should people do to, you know, learn more about, uh, what you’ve done and what you’re interested in?

Marilyn: So you can definitely follow me on Twitter at Waite, Marilyn; WA I T E uh, Marilyn together. Um, my website, marilynwaite.com has a lot of information about some of the various publications and books and things of that nature, uh, podcast episodes and we’ll add this one to the list as well. Um, and of course there is the hewlett.org website, which has, um, some of our, our strategies, including the climate finance strategy and other articles around banking.

Denise: Terrific. Thank you very much. 

Marilyn: Thank you. 

Denise: That’s it for this episode. If you enjoyed my conversation with Marilyn, you can find her on Twitter @WaiteMarilyn, and you can find more resources on our episode page at  climatenarratives.co. If you’re interested in following the clean tech space in China, Marilyn co-hosts a podcast called China Cleantech that showcases green Chinese start-ups.

A reminder that we have a monthly newsletter called climate narratives annotated that goes deeper on some of the issues we cover in the podcast as well as regular updates on highlights from green finance. You can find the link to subscribe in the bio of our Twitter account @NewClimateCap.

A big thanks to Valentine Scherer and Victoria Yates for their help producing this episode, and to Lucas Laufen for the theme music.

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