Sweden’s best-kept secret: Rewiring CEOs for sustainability

Learning to live with social-ecological complexity: An interpretive analysis of learning in 11 UNESCO Biosphere Reserves – Global Environmental Change, March 2018

Kursen: Tio lektioner för ett hållbart näringsliv [Swedish] -Natur & Kultur, Erica Treijs and Lisen Schultz, September 2021

Executive Programme in Resilience Thinking website

I think that one thing is that we are still all human beings and living creatures, even if we are CEOs or financial controllers and that you can tap into that. And, and, um, I think intuitively we all know the importance of life and we have a connection to this web of life. We just need to maybe rediscover it.

Denise: Since the start of 2021 we’ve seen a race – like an arms race – among companies to announce  net zero emissions targets. 

Great, you might say. But do the leaders of those companies know how to achieve them? 

Think about it. The market for training and education is going to blow up in coming years. 

Who’s the reference in this field? Who’s been doing this for a long time, and basing it on the best science?

I turned to Lisen Schultz who runs an executive education programme at the Stockholm Resilience Centre which is, without a doubt, a gold standard in this hot space.

This is a CEO and Board-only programme. It draws on the legacy of the Centre’s pioneering work on the planetary boundaries and Lisen’s own links with Swedish business through the Pontus Schultz Foundation which she founded after her husband died tragically in a bicycle accident at the age of 40.

Teaching sustainability is not easy. It is just such a vast canvas of inter-connections and almost, what I’d call a kind of mental pain to let go of the perform and measure mindset we were given at school.

I’d like to really insist on why I think Lisen’s approach is unique.

It is extremely rafe for such a programme to be housed in academia but explicitly steering away from top down science splaining.

Lisen has a “meet you where you are” approach that is user-centric and designed to empower CEOs to lead change.

She’s publishing a new book this year called: “The Course: 10 Lessons in Sustainable Business”. It’s in Swedish, so if you’re a publisher and see a market for this in English, which I certainly do, then you should get in touch with Lisen right away!

Enjoy the conversation.

Denise: today I’m talking to Lisen Schultz and she is a sustainability scientist. She’s the director of the executive program at the Stockholm resilience center at Stockholm university and she’s also the founder of the Pontus Schultz foundation.

Um, so welcome, Lisa, thank you for coming on the podcast. 

Lisen: Thank you, Denise. Thanks for having me.

Denise: um, your, um, story and your career. I, uh, find really inspiring because I think it is just a unique window, uh, into the really important, but not so well understood business of translating knowledge, practice and mindsets across academia and business and finance.

Um, so could you, um, Uh, you originally come from a research background, you have a PhD in ecology. And, uh, could you describe your journey from academia to where you are now? 

Lisen: Of course, thanks. Well, I started off doing my PhD, studying, uh, initiatives and people who had managed to come together and manage, uh, shared resources.

So landscapes and seascapes and looking into UNESCO biosphere reserves that are places which are supposed to be role models when it comes to, uh, bringing together both biodiversity conservation and sustainable development in a place in collaboration with various stakeholders. And I was interested in how these people managed to come together and really, um, put this huge ambition to work in practice.

So it was a lot about already then understanding how different types of knowledge come together and how knowledge translates into action in a way that brings these signals from the ecosystems into decision making so that we can actually respond to those. 

We also at the Stockholm resilience center over the years discovered an increasing interest from the business community in the kind of science we were doing, uh, on, for example, the concept of planetary boundaries and other things that we’ve developed.

And so we were thinking about how to meet this demand for knowledge from the business community in a way that could really support, um, a transformation towards sustainability. Yeah, so that was happening. 

And then also I was, um, creating this foundation that you mentioned that was created in memory of my husband, who unfortunately passed away in a bicycle accident at the age of 40.

And he was editor in chief for a business magazine in Sweden, and very focused on sustainability. Um, and so we created this foundation in his memory, uh, where the hope that we could take this, this movement that he started in the business community forward. 

And so, um, what I realized then, um, a few years back was that I was in a position where I could actually develop a training program for CEOs that connected sustainability science to the agency of business to support, uh, sustainability transformation, uh, and doing that at the Stockroom Resilience Centre and as the next step for this foundation. 

So that’s, that’s kind of a long story, but moving from collaboration in a landscape to shaping decision-making in business, based on sustainability science is basically my journey.

Denise: Right. You mentioned your, your husband’s work, and when we talked earlier, you said that he was actually a pioneer of raising awareness, uh, on sustainability issues in Sweden through his magazine. Uh, I wondered if you could, um, talk about.

Talk about that because Sweden has always perceived as being ahead of other countries on this. And, you know, um, when did that all get started? If I understood correctly, it was actually before the planetary boundaries that, um, you were influencing, you know, his view of the world through your training in ecology and, and, and he was communicating this to his audience, uh, in writing about green capitalism.

Lisen: Yeah, well, we actually met in 2001 and he was a journalist back then and I had just started my PhD and he was super excited about the future. That was always his motivation was to understand what is happening around the corner and, um, I remember one of our first dates I actually talked about when, when I talked about what I was doing, and I brought up this example from New York city, where, where they had paid upstream land owners, um, in order to, to manage their land in a way that, that supported the, the water quality of the Hudson river.

All the way to the tap water in New York and how they had found that that was a much cheaper and better way of maintaining the water quality, than establishing a water plant. And so you could actually even put a price tag on, on nature in that way. And he was super excited about that example, cause he had never thought about nature as an important asset in the economy.

I think in 2006, he on the first page of his magazine he welcomed everyone to the age of green capitalism. And he started this award of the green capitalist, uh, that he handed out every year. And he was really convinced that unless companies take the planet seriously they will, they will be out of business in only a few years.

Uh, and so that’s, that’s that kind of discussion and conversation on business’ own terms. It was what people then really missed when he passed away. So people in the Swedish business community would call me up and say that we need to carry this movement and conversation forward. So what we did was we created this foundation that had annual seminars and also continued handing out awards to key leaders who had done something brave to embrace sustainability and also actually gender equality and diversity in business, because those were the two other big issues that he felt were fundamental to the long term survival of business. 

Denise: So, I mean 15 years on, um, you’re still, you know, uh, uh, working, you know, in that space.

And, um, I imagine the conversation has really changed, during that time, um, what is, what is the purpose of your executive education program? And could you just talk a little bit about, uh, you know, what, how long you’ve been running it and you know, what, what you’ve learned, uh, since then, Hmm.

Lisen: So it really draws on this idea that when you bring diverse perspectives together, you can create innovation. And that sustainability is really a collective action problem. So we need everyone involved to carry that forward. And through my work with the foundation I really discovered the agency of the business community and the potential of the business community to drive this shift towards sustainability.

So I wanted to create something that would inform, uh, their work. And we also wanted to reach the top level management. So it’s designed for CEOs and for chairpersons, because we truly believe that sustainability needs to be integrated in the core of the company in the very purpose and the way it operates and navigates their context.

We also wanted to make sure that these leaders meet the leaders in sustainability science and that we created these quality conversations where you can learn from each other. 

So the learning journey you go through as a participant is first an individual briefing that I use to really know where these participants are today and what they need, to get the sense of the group.

Then it’s a first meet up with the group where they learn about this new context for business that is the Anthropocene. Uh, so they get a crash course in what that means. And then we have a second meet up that is a two day retreat where we talk more about exploring pathways.

So if the first one is around the problem and the situation, the second meetup is about finding our way through that.

From that retreat, you, uh, everyone leaves with a task that they have defined themselves, something that they’re going to do to act on their insights. And then we meet up again a few months later to share experience, but also calibrate action and discuss next steps. 

And we bring in sustainability scientists, but then also, uh, business leaders and role models and people who can inspire as practitioners in these sessions. 

Denise: I wanted to ask you how, um, how the curriculum has evolved, I know you’re in your third cohort now, is that right? 

Lisen: Right. So the overall structure is the same.

It worked out really well the first time. Uh, but I think what we’ve added is, uh, even more, uh, people from the business community coming in and sharing how they have worked with these different concepts. Like. The circular economy or, or the science-based targets and, uh, or the idea of bringing sustainability to the core of your business.

So we have more speakers like that. This year we’ve also of course, had to shift the program online, which has been, uh, challenging, but we’re still hoping that we can meet up ater in this year. And then we’ve added also a session on, on Natural Capital because we realized that from the start, it was very focused on, people were very focused on climate change. But this year, the participants have, you know, become aware of the issue of biodiversity and water quality and those other aspects of sustainability that need to be addressed in tandem with the carbon emissions.

So we’ve brought in Gretchen Daley from Stanford University to speak about that.

And then also some more focus on resilience. I think the pandemic really, uh, brought that issue up, uh, on how you, how you build resilience into this. Um, so there’s every year there’s a bit of a, of a shift, of course, but the overall learning journey remains the same because it seems to work for these people. 

Denise: One thing you, you, to me, when we spoke earlier, which I found fascinating was that you, um, you know, unlike many, um, there are lots and lots of knowledge to action programs out there. And, uh, but, but. You, you kind of, um, you say you like to meet them where they are.

And so you run actually a one-on-one interview with them before they enter the program, uh, to really understand their perspective. I wonder if you could share some insights from that exercise. Cause obviously it’s very, um, you know, time intensive to do that in an executive training program. 

Lisen: Mm, well, to me that has really been key to be able to at all do this because as a sustainability scientist, you don’t really know what it’s like to be a CEO of a large company, of maybe 50,000 employees, uh, that you need to be able to maintain and grow over time.

And so I think these interviews have really helped me create both the format and the content of our program so that it fits with the reality that these people are in while at the same time, uh, challenging them and opening them to more possibilities of actually combining, for example, sustainability and profits and, and seeing how we can do that.

I think what has amazed me in these conversations, surprised me somehow, um, has been one how all of these people are, uh, driven both by professional and private reasons. 

So it’s always, you know, a combination of the personal and the professional that makes you want to engage more in sustainability.

So it’s not all only about the professional. It’s also a personal motivation. Um, and then, and that’s important to know, and then. The other thing, how, uh, how far some of them really are in their thinking, how advanced they are. Uh, but then also how big this spectrum is, of course, that some people have maybe just begun to think about this and not come so far.

And others have, have worked on these issues for many, many years. 

I can really recommend if people are doing these kinds of programs to take the time, to listen in to every participant thing beforehand, that helps both the participant and us, uh, to set the expectations right, and, and prepare for a really effective, uh, exercise.

Denise: And I just wanted to ask you about the importance of peer to peer learning in these groups. I imagine. Um, it must, there must be almost an aspect of like, you know, therapy, safe space for CEOs to come together and be able to openly talk about the challenges. 

Lisen: We really set aside a lot of time for interaction and make sure to surface the expertise in the room because these people come from different sectors of course of business, um, which have come, you know, far in different aspects and not so far in others, so they can really help each other out.

And then as you said, you know, being a CEO is quite a lonely position in, in some ways. And it is good to be able to talk with others who are in a similar position under Chatham rules, and, um, feeling that you can help each other out. But I would say it’s actually also a bit of a therapy session for our sustainability scientists to see that there are people outside academia who take these issues very seriously and, uh, and do their best to, to work with them. Um, which is, uh, you know, giving us a lot of energy to carry out other work. 

Denise: Let’s talk a little bit about the impact, uh, and what you’ve seen firsthand. Uh, I mean, are there some stories of transformation that you can share?

Lisen: Yeah, I can maybe give you two examples. One was a CEO who comes from a company that owns, uh, and also constructs, uh, commercial buildings. So like hotels, but also, uh, shopping malls in the city and office buildings. Um, and, and, uh, he realized during the course that, uh, actually their biggest.

One of their biggest impacts was, uh, through the use of cement. Whereas before they had, um, they had looked into, you know, how can we decrease our employees flying and, and so on. And when they did the calculations, they realized that no, that’s, that’s not where we can have our biggest impact. And so he said that if he gets to decide and stays in his post, you know, many years ahead, he will never, ever again build a house in cement but use wood instead. Uh, there was also, um, uh, a CEO in the room that represented a forest company. So I think might’ve helped in that shift. So that’s one thing that was quite a brave statement, I think.

And the other thing was I wanted to share was the CEO of a Scania, a truck construction or transportation company, uh, that, um, realize that he really needed to bring his whole organization on board almost 50,000 employees. And so when Greta Thunberg asked every grownup to go on strike with the school kids in September, a few years back, um, he decided that he was going to stop production in the factory and then spend the day educating first, educating all employees on climate change and what that meant.

And then having workshops with every employee on how Scania can can be part of the shift to sustainable transportation systems. 

I think that’s, uh, that’s quite an amazing thing to do. I think it was the first time in the history of Scandia that production stopped. That’s created a lot of engagement  and the way they did it was that the top management.

So Henrik Henriksson taught the top management, who then taught the next level of management, who then taught the next level and so on with this material, and that was partly inspired by, by materials from the executive program so that everyone got the, the knowledge and then also had to share it with the next group, um, which was quite effective.

Denise: I think. I mean that’s yeah, that’s quite something. Um, I imagine that the word through word of mouth that, um, demand, you know, is growing for your course. I mean, do you have a, a waiting list for it? Um, are you planning to expand your offerings? 

Lisen: We have a waiting list for sure. Uh, because we also have of course a limited number of seats every year, because we want to keep the group small enough for them to really get to know each other and for us to be able to tailor the program to the group.

Um, but we also get quite a lot of. Requests from, from through our website. Um, and, uh, we also want to create a group every year that that is, you know, diverse enough and have enough in common to, to create the group good group. So I see that demand is rice raising. I’ll also see that, of course the most difficult time was the first time when no one had ever.

And seeing the program happening the second year, we ask them our alumni to nominate, um, uh, potential candidates and got lots of nomination through there. So since then, I would say maybe 80% of, of our, our new participants come by recommendation from alumni, which is, uh, I think a good, good sign that, that people have enjoyed this program.

I think, um, We are quite a small organization, the Stockholm resilience center. So we need to really think strategically about where we put our time. Uh, so I don’t think we will expand it, uh, so much in quantity, but, uh, we might do some more tailor-made, um, programs for other, for particular sectors. And we would also like to in the future go more international.

It is in English, so anyone can take it, but, uh, it would be really exciting to think about if we could develop this program for, for, um, European business leaders, for example,

Denise: I mean, I do feel like this space, you know, the education mentoring space, um, is, is. There is tremendous demand and just not enough supply for it.

And, uh, you know, you see lots of articles about ESG literacy and fluency and, and so on. Um, there was, um, uh, one thing that made me think of your program was an article in, uh, I think it was responsible investor written by Duncan, Austin talking about, um, You know, ecology and economics, uh, and how the study of ecology is much more about connections and economics is more reductionist about how one is about studying and observing.

The other is about managing and, you know, really training people to come fluent in, uh, complementary, but conflicting ways of seeing the world.

And I, I feel that this really gets to the essence of what you do and it’s it’s, um, um, it’s not a very, um, You can’t really find out how to do it. It’s something you have to evolve through practice.

Um, so I, I wondered if you had any, any tips on that. How do you work with that tension?

Uh, you know, between people coming from a financial performance mindset, you know, trying to in just a very short space of time, um, shift over to this ecology, you know, holistic mindset. 

Lisen: Yeah, I think that’s a, that’s a really important question.

And I think that one thing is that we are still all human beings and living creatures, even if we are CEOs or financial controllers and that you can tap into that. And, and, um, I think intuitively we all know the importance of life and we have a connection to this web of life. We just need to maybe rediscover it.

So it’s not, it’s not a new concept, but it’s maybe a bit of a hidden concept that needs to be brought to the fore. And I think it comes to the fore in conversations and in, through, um, discussing various examples and, and so on. Um, and then I think what, what the biggest struggle is then to go back into your organization that is very much structured around, uh, the financial metrics and, you know, quite a reductionist approach to work, uh, and then to bring those values into that environment and the context and that you need to both sort of translate what you’ve learned in this program, into your current reality, uh, in various ways.

You need to start trying to shift the larger context for your organization, your, your company, so that those core values can really play out. Because as you say, there is a tension here. We’re going through a shift from a non-sustainable economy to a sustainable economy, and there will be changes.

And that means that in, before those changes are made, there is a struggle for, for the people who go first. So I think it helps a lot to have your peers, and be able to discuss these dilemmas that, that appear, um, in this context so that you can navigate it because no one has the recipe and you have to, to find your way through somehow.

Denise: Um, so this brings me to something that’s, uh, related that, which is about the theory of change and you know, how, um, How do, uh, I mean, I think when we spoke earlier, you, you talked about the importance of getting all of your owners on board for a journey, you know, which could imply, um, uh loss-making right.

Uh, the trade off between sustainability and profit in at least the short term. Um, do, do you have anything to share on, on that, on how, uh, how CEOs and companies can work through that? It’s probably much easier to have the light bulb moment in your course and, you know, make a very bold commitment, but then the hard work begins once you leave the center.

Lisen: Mm. Yeah, I think there are a few aspects. One is to really figure out how sustainability connects to the core purpose of your company, what is it that, what, what is the service that, or, or the demand from the world that your company is supposed to fulfill and how can you, um, reframe that in a way that also supports sustainability?

What is it that your company can contribute? In, in the larger, uh, quest towards, uh, a planet that meets everyone’s needs within, within the means of the planet so that it’s part of your identity. And then it’s about bringing your owners and your board on board for this. And for that, you, you really need to show how this is, you know, fundamental to your long-term survival because.

It truly is for your longterm survival. You need to. Be a positive contribution in the world. Um, and if we don’t believe that, you know, we won’t have a world, uh, in a number of decades. So, so we sort of have to, to, to, to believe that that’s the way it works. And then, you know, you can start thinking about the first things to do, of course, is to do the things that actually do combine sustainability and short-term profitability.

Most companies have not already done all of that. There are, there are things you can do though. And then things that you can do that break even, but then for the things that are sustainable, but not profitable, there might be things in your context that you can shift, uh, to, to resolve that tension. So you can work with your customers, cost customers, for example, to, to create the demand for more sustainable, uh, services, or you can.

Um, make an analysis of what policy shifts need to happen in order for sustainability to be the obvious choice. And how can you influence that? So how can you align your lobbying, uh, that most companies do anyway with, uh, lobbying for a more sustainable world? Um, so there are often more things that you can do as a company than you maybe think in order to shift that larger playing field as well to make the most sustainable services also the, the obvious choice for, for everyone. 

Denise: Hmm. Um, I had a last question which is really about, um, Sweden and the Swedish way of doing things. I think, um, people outside of Sweden see Sweden as a kind of a moral superpower and a country where, um, you sort of endowed with the natural ability to embrace sustainability more than other countries.

Um, now you said that the program is actually open to, um, Uh, it’s not just for Swedish CEOs. It’s, it’s, it’s an English. Have you had, um, non Swedes take the program and do you think there is, you know, something almost generically Swedish about what you’re able to achieve there and in a different context, you know, how might you adapt the program or is it really, you know, should it be a mixed program where, um, there is this peer to peer learning between people from outside of Sweden learning from, you know, what you’ve learned in Sweden.

Lisen: Mm. Well, the first year we focused on the Swedish business community because that’s where we had our entry points and could get the right level of commitment. But, um, most of the companies that took the program are. Uh, they have their head office in Sweden, but they have operations all over the world.

So in a way they are not really only Swedish companies, they’re quite international. 

The second year we had, you know, the context of those contexts and then the third year the pandemic hit. So we couldn’t really hope that people would be able to come to Stockholm and engage in this face to face program, but I’m hoping that, um, you know, maybe next year or the year after that, that we can expand.

But so far, no, no international participants has come. However, our contributors, uh, our experts come from, from, uh, various places, uh, the UK and the U S and, and, and so on. And they have commented actually on that, you know, fact that they they’ve, they’ve been wondering if it would be possible to be something like that, to create something like this in the US for example, and a few years back, they would have probably said no, but I think the world is shifting really quickly now.

I think there is a demand for this. Um, more and more people all over the world are realizing that this is the only option we have. 

Denise: Yeah, most definitely. Um, you, you are also working on a book about sustainability, I believe, um, in, in Swedish. And, and could you talk a little bit about that and you know, how it draws on, um, the practical experience that you’ve developed through this training?

Lisen: Mm. Yeah. So, so this actually comes in response to a few of the CEOs who have said, you know, how can I bring this back to, to my staff and make sure that, you know, more people, more people should know about this, that the things that I’ve learned in this program, more people should get access. And, and that we have a limited number of seats every year means that we can’t really educate the whole Swedish population through the program.

Also, uh, because I wanted to try and make sense of it, all which you really need to do if you’re going to write a book that can stand alone. So it’s called, uh, The course: Ten Lessons for Sustainable Business. Um, and, uh, it’s both the course, the program, but also the course of action that we need to take now.

And that we are beginning to take towards sustainability. And so, uh, it’s a program divided up into 10 lessons, but we also have 10 interviews with people who have either. Uh, taking the course or, or who are setting the course, uh, for the Swedish business community at large. So they’re big owners or, or key actors in, in other capacities.

I wanted the book to inform, inform, and inspire action and to help the reader, uh, get hold of their agency in this transformation beyond, you know, the lifestyle choices that we will have heard, we need to make like flying less than eating less meat and so on. How can we put our creativity, our competence, our professionalism into this challenge, uh, what can we do at work to help shift towards sustainability? And that’s, that’s what I’m hoping that this book can inform that process.

Denise: Will it be available in English? 

Lisen: Uh, I don’t have a contract with an English publisher yet, and I haven’t asked for it either. I started with a Swedish, um, yeah, public, but I, I would love to, to do that.

So that’s my next plan is to actually translate it. And because I have English contributors, many of the chapters are already translated so that they could, so that they could, um, uh, you know, review what I had said about their lecture and so on. And so I’m, I’m beginning. Um, I’m almost there.

Denise: It sounds great.

And I do feel that like, after a year of the pandemic, um, being able to read about how we can have more agency on this is very much needed. And, uh, because it’s, it’s very easy to stay in your own space in front of your zoom camera and feel less and less agency on some of these big problems.

Gosh. Well, thank you very much, Lisen it was a pleasure to talk and learn about your program. And I do hope that, um, you know, more people can learn about it and have access to it. Um, could you, uh, just tell some of our listeners, um, where they should go if they want to sign up for the program and if they want to learn more about your work.

Lisen: Well, thank you, Denise, for the opportunity to, to talk with you. I think there was a really inspiring conversation. And if you want to know more it’s, uh, we have a website www executive dot stockholm resilience.org. So it’s quite a complicated one, but you can also probably Google executive program in resilience thinking at Stockholm resilience center.

Denise: That’s it for this episode, thanks for listening to New Climate Capitalism. If you’d like to learn more about Lisen’s work, please go to the episode show notes at climate narratives.co. You’ll find the link to the programme, background reading and the full transcript of our  interview.

If you’re enjoying this season of the podcast, I’d like to remind you to sign up for our newsletter, climate narratives annotated. It’s a free monthly read on finance and climate change. I’m going to go to paid subscriptions at the end of this year, so do sign up now to be a part of the community as it grows. You can find the link to subscribe in the bio of our Twitter account @NewClimateCap.

A big thanks to Valentine Scherer and Victoria Yates for their help producing this episode, and to Lucas Laufen for the theme music.